There are no rules!
Fri, 08/29/2008 - 12:32 — janq
I hardly attack the voting about AI in the LT13. The situation has been created due to chaos and long long time between sign-up and game start.
According to my opinion, the AI-poll was illegal from the following reasons: (see http://longturn.org/rules)
- "Create a poll, if you want changes in settings, ruleset or rules of the game. Voting duration should be 1 week." - Your voting duration was 2 days!
- There is no point speaking about idlers and AI. Only the following one: If players is idle for 10 turns or more, or 3 turns after he game is started or player is added to game, he might be removed. Do you see an AI notice there ?
- May we change the rules during the game? The next poll will be about allowed spaceship or decreased researchcost ?? I think it's evils dangerous precedent. Now one cannot be surprised if someone will make 2-days poll during a game about a setting which is profitable for him.
In oposite to the others, I respect the original rules and according to the step 6 I resign from the LT13 game. They want to ban me for that.
You`re right but only
You`re right but only partial.
1. You know as good as everyone else that time was crucial there. 2 days is enough that everyone active make his voting.
2. Majority on players decided that they want AI, so this game is for players not players for game!
3. "Now one cannot be surprised if someone will make 2-days poll during a game about a setting which is profitable for him." Majority voted yes, why?? I didn`t forced them to do so and noone did...
Majority cannot be over
Majority cannot be over rules. While a majority can change rules during a game, I don't want to lose my time with such a game. KDE was right, LT is a freeciv for noobs ( seems due to your intelligence, you will be noobs forever). Later, some of you will understand why AI was unfair.
Are you afraid of...
...losing against AI ?
Laws are the expression of the people.
If the people wants it, the laws change.
Ideally, but that does not
Ideally, but that does not happen everywhere, if it happen at all somewhere.
--
Hatred is gained as much by good works as by evil. -- Niccolo Machiavelli
Re: majority cannot be over
Majority cannot be over rules.
So you propose rules to be over majority?
short comment
Poll was not illegal, because:
ad 1) "Should" by all means does not mean "must"
ad 2) And do you see a notice "AI switch may not be considered"?
ad 3) It is a matter of personal opinion and has nothing to do with accused illegality of poll.
In oposite to the others, you do not respect the most basic rule of "Live at let live".
Step 6 allows you to do that. Later, it was agreed that notorious using of that rule spoils the fun to the others, here: http://longturn.org/node/532#c...
As you can clearly see, the notion had significant support and it was carried by acclamation. Maybe we are all noobs. Maybe everyone of this 6 billion community except you and kde is noob and a being of lower intelligence. Maybe you will even someday rule the world for that reason. Maybe. But in your shoes, I'd stick to making statements I can prove or at least back up...
Janq, thanks for your feedback, but..
The game was grinding to a halt and needed a poll to get things moving again. If someone suddenly makes a 2-day poll during the game that would mess up the game settings for no reason then clearly that would not be accepted. But there was a good reason, and I don't see how switching the players to AI harms the game more than doing nothing (the poll shows that the general opinion agrees with that). Beside that, there was a reason why the poll had to be quick: a 2 week poll would give an irrelevant outcome, you can't switch dead players to AI. So Janq, your feedback is welcome and ofcourse we have to be careful with mid-game votings. But I don't share your conclusions.
A general remark about the game rules: Freeciv is a complicated game, while our rulelist is very short and limited in scope. Until the rulelist covers every relevant aspect of the game (if that is even possible) we will from time to time run into these situations, and then we wont let the game wither away just because the rules seem to dictate that.
=== 0h Marduk, thou art chiefest among the great gods! To destroy and to create; speak thou the word, and thy command shall be fulfilled. ===
I don't see how switching
I don't see how switching the players to AI harms the game
Just imagine my situation. My neighbours were 2 idlers and 1 noob (a bit far for me - btw founded a city on a holy muntain). In that position it was impossible to change a technology with other player i.e. I had to research everything self.
After these 2 new AIs, I could not leave my cities empty - what more I had to fight with them (because the war is default).
The two AIs neighbours gave me no chance there. It was my reason to resign.
the poll shows that the general opinion agrees with that
6 guys wanted AI, othere 4 guys wanted either remove them or leave as idlers. What a strong general agreement...
I would be not surprised if the 4 have a similar situation than me - i.e. more that 1 AI neighbour and no human neighbour. If yes, I propose them to not lose time and resign as well.
1. Even if there is noob how
1. Even if there is noob, how You call him, as a only living neighbour, why don`t you ask him and make agreement. EVERYONE was a noob or like you think about the rest except you and KDE still are:) Everyone must learn, so better give him a mail, make agreement and play instead of complaining about AI and leaving! Do you remember lt10?? You was wery happy to speak to me and zgred no matter we were completely noob to LT:) You have to make everything alone only if You want so or you have no living neighbour. What`s more You can still take a science from computer! Easy AI is not hard enemy at all:)
2. heheh if you want to leave empty city in normal game... I`d like to be you neighbour:) Same as Mrs, Maho and every player starting with horses:P What about war... I`m not sure if it is default. In relations with my neighbour AI i started war not him:)
If 2 AI neighbours gives You no chance so what can make player with 4 AI neighbours??:)
A) take toys and leave and make more AI active
B) have fun
Which answer do you choose?? It is not about AI, it is what do You understand by fun! What da hell are You thinking... that without any neighbour and without AI you should have ANY chance to win??!! There is no way single player can win to alliance, so AI ONLY gives you chance for free cities and takes out NOTHING!
Even with all those AI players there is still 2x more LIVING ones, it means that maybe You and they just didn`t find them yet. I repeat it one more time, AI is not taking back anything from You couse You know as good as we that without allies YOU CAN`T WIN HERE!
To sum up... It is not a normal LT game so instead complaining abou chances, about changes just have fun! The fun is the most importand part of LT try to remember about it! And if the only fun You see is to win at all costs... better play shortturn. We noobs here want to play for fun:)
oh no, AI surrounds me...
The two AIs neighbours gave me no chance there. It was my reason to resign.
Agreed, two AIs are waaaaay more scary than one...
6 guys wanted AI, othere 4 guys wanted either remove them or leave as idlers. What a strong general agreement...I would be not surprised if the 4 have a similar situation than me - i.e. more that 1 AI neighbour and no human neighbour. If yes, I propose them to not lose time and resign as well.
7 people wanted AI, 2 were against. 2 did not care, so be kind not to include them into your herd. 7:2 - that is what I usually call majority. And, please do not incite others to leave the game. I am very sad you made a choice, long time ago, to influence the gameplay for others by means of detoriorating it, while you could try to improve it, but please leave others be. Someone less experienced could fall for your sweet talk... while you are not actually right.
My neighbours were 2 idlers
My neighbours were 2 idlers and 1 noob
Sounds quite similar to me. 2 idlers, 1 noob, 1 experienced.
In that position it was impossible to change a technology with other player i.e. I had to research everything self.
I am unlikely to be swapping any techs with any of my neighbours anytime soon ..
After these 2 new AIs, I could not leave my cities empty - what more I had to fight with them (because the war is default).
I think AI's attacking your empty cities are the least of your worries. I think a human player would sniff them out much earlier.
I think the main point is that you shouldn't consider LT games as slow ST games. The tactics required are different every game. You need to be able to adapt to the different rule set, not just give up and say the ruleset is dumb and will not work for your style of play.
legal or not
Very nice flame :).
Janq, you're partially right. Legitimacy of the poll is questionable, and very weak majority voted for AI (comparing to all elgible voters).
But you're definitively not right that we can't change rules during game. We could, if only admin (me :) ) allow to post such poll. Obviously I would not publish poll which significantly change game conditions.
This poll didn't. If you're neighbour of some idler, and you're afraid AI taking him, would you consider as unfair if someone from substitue bench take him?.
Also, note that there was such quick polls many times in the past. Many times I did "is someone against?" veryquick vote. Sometimes even online on freeciv chat. So we had precedences in the past - such quick poll is time-honoured custom.
Anyway, I really don't like AIs in game. So, in 2 days (or a bit more) I will remove them. I won't do it, if strong and consistent choir of opponents will say "no, don't do it, we love AIs". But I hope there will be no such choir. (to avoid misunderstandings - I will subjectively decide if choir is strong or consistent, there are no objective criteria ;) ).
Ho no please wait to remove AIs !
AIs have plenty of undefended cities.
Give us some time to take them :P
Obviously I would not
Obviously I would not publish poll which significantly change game conditions. This poll didn't.
This poll did. You cannot tell us that 15 new AI players aren't significant.
re: obviously I would not
Obviously I would not publish poll which significantly change game conditions. This poll didn't.This poll did. You cannot tell us that 15 new AI players aren't significant.
Yes, I can. It isn't 15 new players, it's slight change of 15 players' characteristics. It's almost the same as 15 players come into substitute bench and take idlers seats, which can be done without any poll.