LTXVIII - techlosing
Sun, 01/17/2010 - 13:06 — kevin551
This is a revote on Maho's tech losing patch. We last voted here. The patch was essentially rejected because it was too new, untested and little understood. I suggest we vote again on this patch because it has now been tested in real play for many months on LTex.
/help tlgive
Option: tlgive - chance to lose tech while giving it to someone
Status: changeable
Value: 0, Minimum: 0, Default: 0, Maximum: 100
/help tlrecv
Option: tlrecv - chance to lose tech while receiving it from someone
Status: changeable
Value: 0, Minimum: 0, Default: 0, Maximum: 100
What values should we use?
Poll deadline: 2010-01-27
- tlgive=90,tlrecv=30 (write-in) (60%)
- tlgive=0,tlrecv=0: (current setting - no tech is lost when transferring), tlgive=0,tlrecv=100: (tech cannot be stolen from you)
- tlgive=90,tlrecv=10 (write-in)
- tlgive=100,tlrecv=0: (you lose the tech when it is stolen from you), tlgive=100,tlrecv=100: (you both lose the tech when it is stolen)
Total voters: 10
Comments
I suggest tlgive 90 (when
I suggest tlgive 90 (when you give tech to someone - you loose it almost for sure) and tlrecv=30 - you have small chance to loose tech when receiving from someone.
Giving = Being stolen from.
Tech transfer in a game with the diplomacy setting turned off is not about giving tech to your friends via the diplomacy window. That is not possible. It is about stealing or conquering. The word 'giving' is deceptive here. It means the person who the tech is coming from. The successful attacker is the one who gets tech (ie receiver), the victim or loser is the giver.
In this game I am hoping that we create a game where tech transfer does not happen. That means the attacker gets nothing. But I do not want the loser to be penalised by losing a tech. The overall effect is that everyone has to make their own tech. (except from Great Library). The setting for this is tlgive=0,tlrecv=100.
The word 'giving' is
Ok, so call it donor and acceptor.
But why? He is loser, he should be penalised. Imagine that horde of soldiers sturmed and conquered science laboratory, burned it or something like that. Part of knowledge went away ...
I think that disabling tech transfer at all is not good. Of course, it shouldn't be as today - that's why I wrote that patch.
But why? He is loser, he
That makes a lot of sense in start of game but it will not work in the end. Otherwise wars will become really slow because you need to defend freshly conquered cities or you will lose valuable technologies otherwise.
It would be better to relate technologies to units and buildings you have in cities. E.g. player X conquered city of player A with marketplace and library defended by phalanx. Player X can get only Currency, Writing and Bronze Working. Let's say player X gets writing and player A has no other city with library. In that case lose of Writing looks justified. Otherwise that looks unrealistic. I'm not saying that freeciv must be realistic but I would love that.
IMHO LTXVIII will become not war game but defenders game because anyone who will engage into war 1 vs. 1 will lose because wars will return people to stone age. While attacking one player together might work but again since diplomats are disabled in this game you can make only informal peace/alliance and war units of two "allied" players could not attack same cities at the same time.
diplomats are NOT disabled in this game
You can still make a diplomat.
You can still make an embassy.
You can still steal tech.
You cannot start a diplomatic meeting. Hence -
You cannot form an alliance. (You can agree to work together informally)
You cannot share tech or gold. (You can agree to steal it from each other - but remember tech losing is 90%)
You cannot share vision. (You can email each other maps though.)
You cannot be on the same tile as your friends unit but you can attack together by attacking from different sides.
Yes, I was wrong about
Yes, I was wrong about diplomats. But that doesn't make my point about defensive game less valid.
wars will Not return people to stone age either.
You only destroy tech when stealing or conquering a tech that you don't already have. A long war between two players will soon result in the fact that both players have the same tech. After that no tech is stolen hence no tech is lost. If everyone has for example musketeers then that tech will never be lost.
Avoiding long wars is better and should result in short blitzkreig wars where the winner tries to destroy the loser quickly so that they don't risk losing their tech.
Anyone who justs defends and researches tech risks being set upon by the other players who will want to steal the tech.
no tech stealing
[quote] kevin551: "In this game I am hoping that we create a game where tech transfer does not happen" [quote]
It's simple to do this. Just set the diplchance to 0. It was 80% until I opened a vote. It is 50% now but I think the ideal value is yet lower, around 20-30%, but not 0 as tech stealing makes game more interesting.
tech transfer is also by conquering a city
In LTXIV diplomacy was off. Tech transfer between teams was mostly done by conquering cities. If player A and B are working together they can either take each other's cities or more effectively take a big city from an enemy and raze it by alternating the captures. That is why this patch will work better to stop tech transfer than diplchance.
stealing is not the only
stealing is not the only spying action, so i am not sure is it right to make spy units too weak.
tlgive=100,tlrecv=100: (you
tlgive=100,tlrecv=100: (you both lose the tech when it is stolen) - This is great option! In this case we can play warrior stage all game! Maybe we can try this setting some time.
Only warriors, I would like
Only warriors, I would like to try one like that!
Please dont vote to tlgive>0
Many ppl votes to tlgive=90. In that way person who will get Great Lib will be able to 'give' techs to anyone - he will get it back next turn. So Great Lib would much overpowered.
And maybe some detailed description about stealing ?
I know only that when you bougt or finished building unit eg. horse and someone stole horseback from you in that turn- you wont be able to build if you even bought it before stealing.
What's with research?
Eg. I research republic but someone stole Literacy from me?
Or I build Great Lib and someone stole Literacy from me?
Honestly - I don't know.
Honestly - I don't know. Probably you're not able to finish that tech, probably you will have eg. 1000/800 bulbs researched.
This was my problem...
...and nobody answered me.
After many bulbs lost I can say:
if you don't change the current tech, this tech will be research and you may use it; if you change the current tech, and a tech below was stolen, then you loose all the progress and obviosly can't select the initial tech insteed...
This game might to be no
This game might to be no diplomacy game, so 30/90 will only affect to get tech from conquer or stealing by diplomats/spies.
But you can lost tech in this case.
To get tech from GL, 2
To get tech from GL, 2 players should have it.
Let's assume that tlgive is 90%.
If in T10 I will give you Bronze Working, then you have 90% chance I will loose Bronze Working. So still only one person has that tech. So, in T11 you won't get it, because there is no 2 ppl who knows that.
Of course, it doesn't affect situation when tech is already known by 2 ppl.
What these settings will mean
tlgive=0,tlrecv=100: (tech cannot be stolen from you)
means you must make all the research yourself. You cannot steal it. Everybody has to try to keep up in the tech race.
tlgive=90,tlrecv=30 means it is better to steal tech from other people than make it yourself. Because if you steal it they probably lose it. If you research it yourself and it gets stolen you lose it. The advantages are all with the stealer. Single player games will be slower than normal anyway, with this setting we risk a very slow game indeed. But at least it will be different.
tlgive=90,tlrecv=30 means it
It's always good strategy, until your opponent has no diplomats in city.
It's not so easy to steal tech, and diplomats are quite expensive.
diplomats are quite expensive ?
2 diplomats cost 60 shields. diplchance is 50%
1 library costs 60 shields.
If you steal it you have the tech. 70% of the time
If you research it and it gets stolen you have nothing. 90% of the time
The diplomats are lost however so the average cost of stealing is 60 shields. The researcher just loses the time it took doing the research. Whether or not it is worthwhile stealing depends on how fast someone else is going to steal it from you.
If you have defending
If you have defending diplomat in the city, then you need to loose way more diplomats.
And I noticed that I'm unable to steal tech twice from the same city. Maybe it's in code (I haven't analyzed), or maybe I had just bad luck from few years :).
And it's not true that it's
And it's not true that it's 70%.
Chance to steal is 50%, so using 2 diplomats is 75%. But there is also 30% chance to loose tech, so it's 75%*70% = 52%.
So effective cost of some tech is 120 shields. More, when you want specific tech, then you need to steal all techs below that tech you want. So effective cost of some tech can be even 1200 shields (assuming that there is 9 more techs given player has).
Probability
If you have 2 diplos ( diplchance =50% ):
Chance to steal 1 tech is 50%
Chance to steal 2 techs is 25%
Chance to steal 0 techs is 25%
So effective cost of some tech is 2 diplos = 60 shields not 120.
Don`t forget about
Don`t forget about techloosing, 30% chance of loose. Lets say target has 3 techs advance, we need the most one of them:
- 50% chance of success
- 33% chance of getting particular tech
- 30% of loosing
so getting particular tech has 50%*33% = 16,3%, that means 7 diplos for sure, but even then there is 30% of loosing. If you loose you have only 10% that you will be able to steal that tech again.
So each player can:
1. be carefull with roads and make cities unreachable in one turn
2. keep def(diplomats) in reachable cities
3. after loosing something from a city just leave it at peace, noone other will steal there until spies
4. build improvements just after getting tech, buildings are not going down after loosing base tech.
The only bad thing here is GL. Maho please, let us make another polll about removing it...............
Ok, let's focus on one
Ok, let's focus on one diplomat :). Two diplomats case is too complicated for my Rachunek prawdopodobieństwa(Probabilistycs?) knowledge.
Chance to get tech by one diplo is 50%, and chance that you will keep it after you steal is 70%. So chance to get tech is 35%.
So effective cost of ANY tech is not 60 nor 120, but 30shields * 1/0.35 = 85 shields.
Effective cost of PARTICULAR tech is 85 shields * number of tech your opponent has more than you.
If you will steal him every tech he research, then he will need to research it again, and you will have small usage of that tech (notabene - he can steal it back from you:D).
You can let him research something valuable (eg. Republic), and then steal, but it means that you will have 10 techs to steal before you get Republic.
So - I wouldn't consider diplomats as overpowered in techloosing.
it is in code:) and it is
it is in code:) and it is not the bad luck:) try again with spies:P